I actually went for a short walk on Thursday, the first outing since
October, so I thought I would bore you all with a trip report. Then I
thought why bother? No one ever comments on my reports these days so I
thought I would whinge about my current in-car Sat Nav instead and then
pose a question.

Now the whinge. I usually set the Sat Nav these days just in case I get
lost ignoring its time consuming short cuts. Thursday's destination was
the minor road between Fountains Fell and Pen-y-Ghent and and
predictably the Sat Nav tried to lead me off the A65 even before I
entered Gargrave. The A65 had a set of temporary traffic lights before
the Settle turnoff which must have cost me at least a couple of minutes
and rush hour traffic prevented any overtaking but even so I arrived at
my destination just 5 minutes after the pre Gargrave ETA.

On the way back with plenty of time to spare I thought I might as well
see how stupid the programmers at Garmin had been and followed the Sat
Nav directions. Apart from the 9 minutes the ETA receded before I
finally reached the A65 again I was also treated to 2 junctions where
there were no verbal directions and the sun made viewing the screen
impossible. Now the first of those junctions was at an acute angle to a
major road (almost an oxymoron when applied to a minor country lane) and
the way on seemed obvious but the second was the opposite way round and
I followed the major road while the Sat Nav had expected me to go
straight on onto an even more minor road rather than bearing left.

And now the question - are there any in-car unitsother than the highly
unsatisfactory Garmins that take grid references or some other easy way
of specifying a destination in the middle of nowhere? I am absolutely
fed up with having to second guess my current nuvi every time it directs
me down a single track road.

Roger wrote:

> And now the question - are there any in-car unitsother than the highly
> unsatisfactory Garmins that take grid references or some other easy way
> of specifying a destination in the middle of nowhere? I am absolutely
> fed up with having to second guess my current nuvi every time it directs
> me down a single track road.

My old TomTom GO700 will let you specify destinations using an address,
postcode, a remembered favourite, a point indicated on its map, and a
latitude+longitude grid reference.

Having said that, being able to spec the destination (for for that
matter "via" points) using grid refs does not prevent it routing you
somewhere you would rather not go.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:57:52 +0000, Roger wrote:
> Now the whinge. I usually set the Sat Nav these days just in case I get
> lost ignoring its time consuming short cuts.

Getting lost is the best way of finding the really interesting stuff, IME
:-)

Roger wrote:
[..]
> lane) and the way on seemed obvious but the second was the opposite
> way round and I followed the major road while the Sat Nav had
> expected me to go straight on onto an even more minor road rather
> than bearing left.
>
> And now the question - are there any in-car unitsother than the highly
> unsatisfactory Garmins that take grid references or some other easy
> way of specifying a destination in the middle of nowhere? I am
> absolutely fed up with having to second guess my current nuvi every
> time it directs me down a single track road.

I've got the same toy with the same faults, ( I bought it for the the hands
free phone facility as much as anything else.). The most amusing one for me
local to home. If coming off the motorway, it sends me off at the third exit
to the roundabout5 rather than the first and outlines a route that must be
at least a couple of miles longer and uses similar grade roads. If I ignore,
which is always the best for SWMBO'd, she becomes all petulant and goes off
recalculating. "Continue on existing route 0.8 miles to roundabout" Bollox
to that, I'm turning right at the trafficlights just ahead. She doesn't
recognise these for some reason though they have been there for the best
part of ten years.

I have to say, that when I do this and she realises that I have made a smart
move she avoids going into "Recalculating" mode and silently shows me the
next part of the route. Immediately prior to home, she ignores one road to
the left as far too trivial to advise me about, assuming I know that and I
should be turning left at the second junction. We are almost there, passed
the school and the church and she tells me to turn right. Oh silly woman,
that's a turn too early. So yet again I ignore her and do my own thing: she
starts the "Recalculating" routine and then realises we are there, cutting
herself off in mid word and going into arrival routine.

Having travelled extensively over the country for many years without her, I
do not fall into the traps.

To be fair, there was one weekend recently when the police had completely
closed off the A55 after an accident, where I knew full well the direction
and roughly the roads to use but was not 100% confident having not used them
for close on 40 years when she was spot-on.

One of my kids has TomTom. He also has no geographic sense either. Currently
living in the NW - Manchester way the TomTom rightfully told him to head
south on the M6. At the Stoke junction, which is the logical turnoff to get
to Leics., the junction was blocked. TomTom told him to go down to the
new(ish) M6 by-pass and turn east skipping the shorter and more logical
route along the A5.

Another son has a friend living in Salop. That lad's SatNav told him how to
get to our address carefully avoiding the logical direct route, sending him
down the M54, M6, M42 and then cut across to Leics. It didn't even recognise
that the M6 Toll Road existed. Additional mileage must have been circa 30 on
a roughly 100 mile route.

Doncha just luv 'em?

PS I get the feeling that they are much of a much - we'll see....

Jules wrote:

> Getting lost is the best way of finding the really interesting stuff, IME
> :-)

Absolutely !
I usd to have one of those £1.99 ball compas things in my car as a
service engineer. (before affordable GPS days)

Look at a map, get a vague idea as to the direction I ultimately wanted
to (Noth, Noth/west, West etc) Drive for an hour and if I felt lost then
look for where I was on the map and another rough bearing and head off
again.

:¬)

Makes me laugh when I see people firing up their sat nav's to go to work
and back !

Clot wrote:

> Another son has a friend living in Salop. That lad's SatNav told him how to
> get to our address carefully avoiding the logical direct route, sending him
> down the M54, M6, M42 and then cut across to Leics. It didn't even recognise
> that the M6 Toll Road existed. Additional mileage must have been circa 30 on
> a roughly 100 mile route.
>
> Doncha just luv 'em?

You do realise that many of them have route preference options... so if
you say you really like motorways, are not so fond of A roads, and hate
B roads they will quite often go out of your way to avoid the obvious in
favour of your stated preferences...

In article <-ZGdnZZ4P40njyHUnZ2dnUVZ8rCWnZ2d>, John Rumm
<see.my.signature> scribeth thus
>Clot wrote:
>>You do realise that many of them have route preference options... so if
>you say you really like motorways, are not so fond of A roads, and hate
>B roads they will quite often go out of your way to avoid the obvious in
>favour of your stated preferences...
>

Do they teach -anyone- how to read a map these days?...

Thanks for the input folks but actually I intended the message for
uk.rec.walking so don't be surprised if those who frequent both groups
see it turning up there later. I appreciate the depth of experience in
this ng but wanting to drive to somewhere that hasn't a name or postcode
is very much a minority interest.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:18:36 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.signature> wrote:

>Roger wrote:
>
>> And now the question - are there any in-car unitsother than the highly
>> unsatisfactory Garmins that take grid references or some other easy way
>> of specifying a destination in the middle of nowhere? I am absolutely
>> fed up with having to second guess my current nuvi every time it directs
>> me down a single track road.
>
>My old TomTom GO700 will let you specify destinations using an address,
>postcode, a remembered favourite, a point indicated on its map, and a
>latitude+longitude grid reference.

Do you mean lat+longitude, or NGR?

My TomTom GO710 won't (AFAIK) deal with NGR, which is why I had to get
a proper GPS receiver (which of course also shows tracks and other
features which a SatNav doesn't). I frequently walk disused railway
tracks.

Roger <roger> wrote:
>
>And now the question - are there any in-car unitsother than the highly
>unsatisfactory Garmins that take grid references or some other easy way
>of specifying a destination in the middle of nowhere? I am absolutely
>fed up with having to second guess my current nuvi every time it directs
>me down a single track road.


My TomTom will accept a lat/long position and guide you to the nearest
road, but I suspect it has most of the same weaknesses as other SatNav
systems. The devil is in the detail - the mapping is often poor and is
usually responsible for the silliest errors, some of which can be quite
dangerous.

I am thoroughly fed up of being diverted down single track roads with
grass growing in between two tarmac wheel tracks, only to find that they
save a few tens of metres over using a 60 mph A or B road and therefore
waste many minutes. And this is in the Chilterns - hardly a remote and
sparsely populated area.

The message <-ZGdnZZ4P40njyHUnZ2dnUVZ8rCWnZ2d>
from John Rumm <see.my.signature> contains these words:

> You do realise that many of them have route preference options... so if
> you say you really like motorways, are not so fond of A roads, and hate
> B roads they will quite often go out of your way to avoid the obvious in
> favour of your stated preferences...

My unit has 2 main preferences - fastest and shortest. Unfortunately it
appears that those clever clogs at Garmin have no idea of the difference
between single track and single carriageway roads. From the way in which
the ETA recedes into the distance it appears to me that they have a
target average of 40 mph for single track roads which might be ok for
some of the long straight roads in Northern Scotland (assuming they
haven't been upgraded to dual carriageways since I was last there) but
for twisty lanes with high banks or hedges 40 mph is the height of
absurdity and even a 20 mph average would often be optimistic.

The message <cb6or45tmfqk479sgges2q430uijgehvb6>
from Bruce <no> contains these words:

> My TomTom will accept a lat/long position and guide you to the nearest
> road, but I suspect it has most of the same weaknesses as other SatNav
> systems. The devil is in the detail - the mapping is often poor and is
> usually responsible for the silliest errors, some of which can be quite
> dangerous.

Tom-Tom claim to be the best so if they can't deal with single track
roads it looks as if I am stuck with what I have got and must review
every route before I set off so I know where to ignore the directions.

Lat/long is a bit of a pain. You can't just read it off a map like a
grid reference.

The message <NPkANKBXgBvJFw2A>
from tony sayer <tony> contains these words:

> Do they teach -anyone- how to read a map these days?...

I doubt if it is in the National Curriculum and in any case a hand held
gps removes the need to know anything about navigation particularly if
used in conjunction with a mobile phone. :-)

I however am a hill walker of the old school having spent some 40 years
relying on map and compass work (often alone and often as not in poor
visibility) before surrendering to temptation and buying a handheld gps.
I haven't as yet left the stone age completely behind as I still lack
that other modern essential, a mobile phone.

Roger <roger> wrote:

>The message <cb6or45tmfqk479sgges2q430uijgehvb6>
>from Bruce <no> contains these words:
>
>> My TomTom will accept a lat/long position and guide you to the nearest
>> road, but I suspect it has most of the same weaknesses as other SatNav
>> systems. The devil is in the detail - the mapping is often poor and is
>> usually responsible for the silliest errors, some of which can be quite
>> dangerous.
>
>Tom-Tom claim to be the best so if they can't deal with single track
>roads it looks as if I am stuck with what I have got and must review
>every route before I set off so I know where to ignore the directions.


If TomTom is the best, I dread to think what the worst is like. I have
crawled at 10-15 mph up narrow, single track lanes with the sump guard
on my car scraping the gravel in the centre of the road just to save a
couple of hundred metres that would have been on a first class A road.

I have two TomTom systems, one on a PDA and one standalone. The
software versions are slightly different and there are some
inconsistencies between the directions they give. But both have made
the same potentially dangerous errors at the same locations.

I almost bought my partner a cheap Medion system for £49 but was warned
off by a friend who had one and threw it into a river as a result of the
sheer frustration it caused him. ;-)


>Lat/long is a bit of a pain. You can't just read it off a map like a
>grid reference.


That's true. But if it is somewhere you go regularly, on your first
trip you can save the GPS position as a Favourite and easily call it up
for all future visits.

Frank Erskine wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:18:36 +0000, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature> wrote:
>> Do you mean lat+longitude, or NGR?

lat+longitude...

> My TomTom GO710 won't (AFAIK) deal with NGR, which is why I had to get
> a proper GPS receiver (which of course also shows tracks and other
> features which a SatNav doesn't). I frequently walk disused railway
> tracks.

More to the point, the sat nave GPS will always try to map you onto a
known road if it can. Hence if you are but off road but close to one it
will assume that you are on the road, and it has just got a measurement
error.