OK so it is probably a contradiction in terms but I have a *space*
issue.

I made a decision to use underfloor heating, thermal store, system
boiler and the old garage as a kitchen diner for an annexe we are
constructing. What I failed to realise is that *garages* are really too
narrow to accept all the bits of tackle that housewives consider
essential.

One possible saving has been to consider fitting the thermal store in
what will be a very modest (minuscule) loft. I don't have the actual
dimensions yet. Browsing through various offerings looking for short/fat
versions, I came across a horizontal store!

How serious a problem would this cause? I vaguely remember
stratification being discussed here. I have no current ambition to use
any alternative energy source .

regards

On Jun 29, 9:17 am, Tim Lamb <t> wrote:
> OK so it is probably a contradiction in terms but I have a *space*
> issue.
>
> I made a decision to use underfloor heating, thermal store, system
> boiler and the old garage as a kitchen diner for an annexe we are
> constructing. What I failed to realise is that *garages* are really too
> narrow to accept all the bits of tackle that housewives consider
> essential.
>
> One possible saving has been to consider fitting the thermal store in
> what will be a very modest (minuscule) loft. I don't have the actual
> dimensions yet. Browsing through various offerings looking for short/fat
> versions, I came across a horizontal store!
>
> How serious a problem would this cause? I vaguely remember
> stratification being discussed here. I have no current ambition to use
> any alternative energy source .
>
> regards

Stratification still occurs in a 2' tall container


NT

In message
<f2aa02be-172c-4072-9bda-14fa57cbb5e9>, NT
<meow2222> writes
>On Jun 29, 9:17 am, Tim Lamb <t> wrote:
>
>Stratification still occurs in a 2' tall container

OK. I suppose I am concerned that I might be spoiling the heating and
hot water system in order to squeeze in another chunk of electrical
white goods:-(

regards

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:53:12 +0100, Tim Lamb wrote:

> In message
> <f2aa02be-172c-4072-9bda-14fa57cbb5e9>, NT
> <meow2222> writes
>

That's interesting - I'm likely to be trying to put a thermal store in
our loft in the next year or so - and something short and fat (other than
me) could be very useful.

Do you lose much over a vertical store though?

In message <UEt2m.49737$OO7.12252>, PCPaul
<urd3> writes
>>>
>>>Stratification still occurs in a 2' tall container
>>
>
>That's interesting - I'm likely to be trying to put a thermal store in
>our loft in the next year or so - and something short and fat (other than
>me) could be very useful.
>
>Do you lose much over a vertical store though?

From the lack of response, I guess our *experts* are elsewhere:-)

I'm going to support BT by telephoning DPS of Epsom later. I'll post
anything useful I learn.

regards

"Tim Lamb" <tim> wrote in message
news:fw3k
> OK so it is probably a contradiction in terms but I have a *space* issue.
>
> I made a decision to use underfloor heating, thermal store, system boiler
> and the old garage as a kitchen diner for an annexe we are constructing.
> What I failed to realise is that *garages* are really too narrow to accept
> all the bits of tackle that housewives consider essential.
>
> One possible saving has been to consider fitting the thermal store in what
> will be a very modest (minuscule) loft. I don't have the actual dimensions
> yet. Browsing through various offerings looking for short/fat versions, I
> came across a horizontal store!
>
> How serious a problem would this cause? I vaguely remember stratification
> being discussed here. I have no current ambition to use any alternative
> energy source .

What make? Does it have a DHW plate heat exchanger.

Tim Lamb wrote:
> OK so it is probably a contradiction in terms but I have a *space* issue.
>
> I made a decision to use underfloor heating, thermal store, system
> boiler and the old garage as a kitchen diner for an annexe we are
> constructing. What I failed to realise is that *garages* are really too
> narrow to accept all the bits of tackle that housewives consider essential.
>
> One possible saving has been to consider fitting the thermal store in
> what will be a very modest (minuscule) loft. I don't have the actual
> dimensions yet. Browsing through various offerings looking for short/fat
> versions, I came across a horizontal store!
>
> How serious a problem would this cause? I vaguely remember
> stratification being discussed here. I have no current ambition to use
> any alternative energy source .
>
> regards
If you put it in your loft:
1) you may need to reinforce the loft as water is heavy
2) any heat loss will be wasted through the roof (no insulation is perfect)

[g]

In message <h2fa52$vst$1>, Doctor Drivel
<killefitz> writes
>
>"Tim Lamb" <tim> wrote in message
>news:fw3k
>
>What make? Does it have a DHW plate heat exchanger.

It might have done, if I could get any sense out of DPS.

The current plan is to use a big combi:-(

By hanging the floor joists (150mm and about 2m long for those concerned
about heavy water) I can achieve a space of 1050mm x 400mm or 900 x 680
etc. given by the roof pitch of around 30deg.

Access for plumber could only be through a ceiling hatch and standing on
steps which may not be acceptable.

regards

"Tim Lamb" <tim> wrote in message
news:fwgh
> In message <h2fa52$vst>, Doctor Drivel
> <killefitz> writes
>
> It might have done, if I could get any sense out of DPS.
>
> The current plan is to use a big combi:-(

How many baths, showers? Look at the wall mounted ATAG 51kW and the Ethos
54kW combis. They do two bathrooms. These have weather compensation that
can be set to cope with UFH - that's if you only have UFH. The W-Bosch
floor mounted Highflow 550 does two bathrooms too.

george (dicegeorge) wrote:
> Tim Lamb wrote:
> If you put it in your loft:
> 1) you may need to reinforce the loft as water is heavy
> 2) any heat loss will be wasted through the roof (no insulation is perfect)
>
> [g]

Why do you need a thermal store, Tim. What's wrong with just a nice big
pressurised hot water tank, with a 2ft square footprint?

Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <h2fa52$vst>, Doctor Drivel
> <killefitz> writes
>
> It might have done, if I could get any sense out of DPS.
>
> The current plan is to use a big combi:-(
>

Nah. My neighbour got a pressurised tank in the same converted woodstore
the boiler already occupies. No thermal store, just lots of high
pressure hot water.

Converted the boiler to run full pressure CH as well at the same time.

No header tanks any more, no shower pumps.



> By hanging the floor joists (150mm and about 2m long for those concerned
> about heavy water) I can achieve a space of 1050mm x 400mm or 900 x 680
> etc. given by the roof pitch of around 30deg.
>

MMm. that's not room enough for much of a tank..

> Access for plumber could only be through a ceiling hatch and standing on
> steps which may not be acceptable.
>

I think its time to build an insulated outhouse..

"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp> wrote in message
news:n911

> Why do you need a thermal store, Tim. What's wrong with just a nice big
> pressurised hot water tank, with a 2ft square footprint?

It is clear you do not know the benefits of thermal storage.

A lot is wrong with them:

Unvented Cylinder blasts:
http://www.masterplumbers.com/plumbn...1/dec/avon.asp

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/33094_boom28.shtml

http://www2.canada.com/edmonton/edmo...0-5c298527e2d5

http://www.abc15.com/news/local/stor...FSrKb_osA.cspx

http://i43.tinypic.com/2d3s6v.jpg http://i43.tinypic.com/ehg7l0.jpg

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=pu3FwgIHsQA

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=GF_Wrm-Ns0I

An exploding water heater ripped apart a north Phoenix home Thursday
morning.

Video from Air15, near 40th Street and Thunderbird Road, showed a hole in
the roof of the garage, a pile of rubble, and debris blown out into the
neighborhood.

The water heater ended up on a sidewalk about two blocks away, across from a
school.

Fire spokesman Victor Rangel said the temperature and pressure valve
malfunctioned, sending the water heater skyrocketing.

Nearby residents were evacuated as a Southwest Gas crew and agents from
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated. Neighbors were allowed back into
their homes after about two hours.

Many neighbors described the sound of a bomb, with windows shattering, walls
shaking, and in one home pictures falling off walls.

A neighbor's wall was damaged by the explosion, which also broke windows in
a house across the street.


One woman who lives two blocks away said the blast knocked all the pictures
off her walls.

Click related link to right to see a water heater explosion.

Most of the damage occured to the house next door and directly across the
street. However debris from the blast could be seen in yards and on roof
tops.

According to Phoenix firefighters, the owner of the house was asleep when
the blast ripped apart his garage about 5 a.m.

Red Cross relocated the homeowner.

No one was injured. [luckily]

Rangel said he's never seen this happen and he'd spoken to several plumbers
who had heard of hot water heaters exploding, but had never seen it happen.

He said homeowners need to keep up with the maintenance of water heaters;
sometimes the T and P valves become corroded or have been installed
improperly.

Rangel suggests having the units checked by a professional, especially for
people buying homes that have gone through foreclosure. A home bought after
a foreclosure might not have gone through an inspection, especially in a
short sale.

Water heater warnings and tips from the Phoenix Fire Department Most of the
time, your water heater just sits where it's been placed, quietly doing its
job. But unlike your family pet, if it's unhappy it's not going to walk to
the door and bark and scratch. It could just suddenly blow up like the one
that exploded this morning near Thunderbird Road and 38th Street.


What? You didn't know that your water heater could be so lethal? It can be
if a tank has been improperly installed, if hazards have been allowed to
develop over time, if it has been improperly vented, or if the pressure
relief valve has been tampered with.

Here are some safety tips to use when operating your hot water heater:


--------------------------------

Explosion lifts off roof

Tue, January 08 2008


Roof blown off house and then brought back down on to the bungalow after hot
water tank causes explosion

A HOME in Pamber Heath was wrecked this afternooon (Monday) after the roof
of the bungalow was lifted by the force of an explosion.

Firefighters from Tadley and Basingstoke rushed to the scene at 12.10pm,
after what was though to be a gas explosion at the private bungalow in
Silchester Road. It was later discovered to be caused by an electric hot
water tank.

Luckily no-one was at home at the time and no-one was hurt.

Upon arrival, firefighters discovered the explosion had caused extensive
damage to internal and external walls and the roof.

Hampshire fire spokesman, Mark Jones, who attended the scene, said the
bungalow was now "uninhabitable" following damage to internal and load
bearing walls. "The roof was blown off and came back down on the house, as
all the tiles were loose," he said. "And there's a big outwards bow in one
of the outside walls."

According to Mr Jones the cause was an electric hot water tank, which got
"hotter and hotter" after an emersion heater had been left on, with the
water turned off. Incident commander, Tony Evans of Basingstoke Fire
Station, decided not to the evacuate the surrounding properties, which were
not damaged in the blast. He said he was confident there would be no more
explosions.

Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service's Urban Search and Rescue team, which is
trained to rescue people from collapsed buildings and to stabilise unsafe
structures, was put on standby but not required.

In message <h2g8oe$moh$1>, Doctor Drivel
<killefitz> writes
>>>
>>>What make? Does it have a DHW plate heat exchanger.
>>
>> It might have done, if I could get any sense out of DPS.
>>
>> The current plan is to use a big combi:-(
>
>How many baths, showers? Look at the wall mounted ATAG 51kW and the
>Ethos 54kW combis. They do two bathrooms. These have weather
>compensation that can be set to cope with UFH - that's if you only have
>UFH. The W-Bosch floor mounted Highflow 550 does two bathrooms too.

One bath, one shower, underfloor and some rads.

50 KW would stretch my gas supply. There is an existing 25KW boiler
serving the rest of the house and I see the gas meter is rated at 6cu.m.

regards

In message <h2ggut$fn9$11>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp> writes
>
>Why do you need a thermal store, Tim. What's wrong with just a nice big
>pressurised hot water tank, with a 2ft square footprint?

The requirement is for an annexe which may have occasional tenants. I am
trying to avoid annual inspection charges.

regards

In message <h2gnb0$mmv$1>, Doctor Drivel
<killefitz> writes
>
>"The Natural Philosopher" <tnp> wrote in message
>news:n911
>
>> Why do you need a thermal store, Tim. What's wrong with just a nice
>>big pressurised hot water tank, with a 2ft square footprint?
>
>It is clear you do not know the benefits of thermal storage.
>
>A lot is wrong with them:
>
>Unvented Cylinder blasts:

I suppose avoiding electric immersion as a heat source overcomes most
problems.

Back to the original issue.... can one have a short fat thermal store?

regards